Curt Posts Ahoy!

[Kurik Lein]

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/40053-38-studios-copernicus-mercury-other-stuff-818.html


I haven't played KOA yet (just finished me3, playing batman now!), are the 2 factions clear from the single player game?


Ya but don't think about factions in a traditional sense...



Whatever sense it is in as long as they can party together for PvE it's all good. If not it's perpetuating a massive mistake.


Agreed



No way guys, our factions are going to be totally different because in our game you can do QUESTS to level up with them!


Zehn I am unsure what you're going for.
Are you trying to piss me off to get a response? I think you know that's not going to happen by now.
Or are you trying to talk for me, or tell people what you think I really mean, in both cases you continue to be wrong.
Can't figure it out.
We are not going to reinvent MMO's, but we are going to to try to elicit some of what we all felt with EQ, in some way, while evolving MMO's in ways we think are pretty damn cool and new.



Why would it be impossible? Just because their Marketing Dept. has kept everything hush doesn't mean that the game isn't farther than we thought.

Also, Curt not saying anything in response is a little interesting. You'd think that if Todd was completely off base with the release then Curt would let us know.

Any thoughts Curt?


I promise this game is much farther along than anyone here believes. I also promise that the most important feature of our MMO will be polish, COMPLETE and total polish. We have one chance to get this right, it started with Reckoning, and Copernicus will continue that. We HAVE to have players believing in our software, and our service. While there were some bugs in Reckoning, and we're working to fix them, I am proud the team launched such a polished product.

I know of only one other company, maybe 2, in existence that people EXPECT polished product. I am NOT naive enough to think people believe this about us, but Copernicus will be a MONUMENTAL step towards reinforcing that belief.

I've said it before, you may not like the genre, you DEFINITELY will argue/hate/debate/love/be angered with our design decisions, but we HAVE to create true value, we have to have players believe that when it says 38 on the product, it's a quality product.



Todd:

3 key points to artistic development: Technology, Cash, Deadline.


Todd about comic books "Will the delivery mechanism for words and pictures change overtime? Sure."

I would like to think, words and pictures of your adventure through the game is something that needs to be taken advantage of. I've babbled about it in earlier pages in this thread, but I just want to say that it is a marketing tool to attract new audiences that are outside of your game. It defines your adventure and experiences. The ability for individuals to explore this media through 3rd parties who categorize the content is how you outsource the work. This would be done by providing RSS/XML feeds of interactions within individual players, NPCs, or "zones".


Tyen you just gave me what could be an INSANELY cool idea... thanks!
THIS is why our designers and team HATE me trolling boards :)



I think it's very fair to ask what purpose levels even serve in modern MMO's..


For a huge set of players levels denote, call out, and acknowledge achievement. Levels are a way to recognize effort, achievement, dedication, whatever you want to call it or label it, for many players.

I always liked levels in my games.

Not to say I didn't like games without levels, because I did, but given the choice I liked it due to it's simplicity.

It gives me a ladder to climb, and imo HOW I climb the ladder is about as important to me, if not more so, than the actual climbing itself.

It's a game, my hobby, and I want to have fun playing it, whatever the system in place to denote progress.

I wasn't a fan of UO, mainly because of PVP, and me not being a PVP guy, but I think more so because everyone looked and acted the same. Everyone had the same skills, and abilities, and to me that was boring.

I like being able to be a monk, and the fact that ONLY (at launch) humans could be monks in EQ was, I think, the major reason I picked the class. I like that, I think that's cool.



I HATE entering a city and have 20 asshole NPCs telling me what to do. Especially when you are forced to listen to them.

If I want to kill everyone in the city instead of helping them, that is how I want to climb the ladder. If I just ruined some dude's ability to finish a quest because I beat down his NPC pal, than I had a good time.

Wutdo


The problem is that works fine when you killing all the NPCs doesn't impact other players, in an MMO, it does.

EDIT: Copernicus, and as always this is IMO only, will be an amazing MMO, an amazing experience for reasons that I believe MANY MMO players here will find awesome. Some won't, some of you guys will bitch and will gripe, that's likely the reason FoH is FoH.
It will NOT be an ability based sand box game, it just won't. So those of you that want that need not continue following this thread. Apologies if that was what you were hoping for.
It won't reinvent the wheel in many ways, but I do believe it will introduce some things promised, yet never done, and some things thought un'doable'. It may not be your cup of tea, but I am betting, roughly 40mm of my own money, and crap ton of others, that we will change the MMO space forever.
It will not be a twitched based combat system, it will have classes, it will have things I think MMO players love, and it will do them as well as anyone ever has.
I do believe we will move the genre forward, how much we do will likely be on you, the players, to determine on your own if we did what you had hoped, or did not.



Seriously, with so much of your own money on the line... I don't think anyone wishes you ill. Just hoping the game lives up to what you're putting out there because many of us have heard it all before.


You honestly haven't. What you've ALL heard before is people spending OTHER peoples money to make THEIR game. We are making a game I DO want to play, but we aren't making MY game, and I think that is an enormous difference.

We are making a game that started with MY money, and that is a big difference imo. It doesn't make me immune from scathing posts but it's an ENORMOUS difference, whether you agree or not.

The rants will continue, and I get it.

My "job" is to create a company that can grow, and become something huge, at least as I see it. That comes from creating a team and a culture these people WANT to belong to, forever. That's different, at least it is to me.

But at the end of the day it will come down to what you said earlier, we have to make a fun game, a game you WANT to play, a world you WANT to be in, to be involved in, to save, to be heroic in, to have fun in, etc.



I will agree with this, and what I was thinking (but failed to say) when I wrote I wanted to feel that "there was a grander story being told." As a Human in WoW, I thought the Deadmines questline was amazing, and by the time I finished (in spite of the tedious collection quests) I felt like there was a story far bigger than my own going on in the world.

Then it kind of petered out and the rest of the game felt like "Okay, now that you beat the Defias, go kill undead in that scary forest over there/animals in the mountains/whatever. Drop the pointless collection quests and offer a few epic questlines akin to the Defias Brotherhood one.


Gotta tell you SWtoR did this for me. My NPC buddies made me a hero, or at least feel superior. And it wasn't from jump street.

I think there's another angle here. What if we made you feel different, special? Then made the world something epic and awesome, then made you important in that, then made you matter in the future of that.

All of that wrapped up in an extremely polished and fun game.


Can we get a legitimate definition of what "WoW clone" means? Are we even speaking the same language?
I keep hearing this, and wondering exactly what the poster means.
I think for purposes of this thread in this discussion it might behoove us to define "WoW clone" going forward.

[Dash]

Lol Kurik! That last post by Tyen? Gave me an insanely good idea. Now to find someone who can make an add-on for the mmo that will store your screenshots with specific locations in-game (in a box in a house or in a bank vault special slot). Nothing like keeping a picture history of you growing up and leveling in the game or rare mob spawn points or great farm spot locations or just plain cool scenery shots within the game, not external to it in some windows folder.

[Kurik Lein]

Yeah that would be pretty cool Dash.

[DeathtoGnomes]

an epicly-huge-long-a**-continus movie of your time in the game that starts playing everyime you enter your in game house!

[Fozzik]

I bet I know what Curt is thinking... players might be able to buy their own MMORPG story in comic book form. Imagine being able to pay $10 or something and have a comic book printed and shipped to you that contained all your exploits and adventures in-game. ;)


In a way, something very much like what Lego Universe had...where you could build lego castles in game, and order a physical set of legos to build that same castle in real life. I wonder if the Lego Universe guy they brought in might be here to do stuff like that.

Also, possibly order an action figure of your character...

[Bossner]

Also, possibly order an action figure of your character...

Now this I could definitely see, since they have Todd backing them up and the fact that Blizzard managed to do it with WoW. Definitely something a lot of people would take advantage of giving the past response to it, and they wouldn't need to outsource it to get it done.

[Malikai]

Also, possibly order an action figure of your character...

Sign me up.

[Mopar63]

The figurine concept already existsin fact I mentioned I would love to see this. It should not be hard to do, the technology is already there, look at Figure Prints. Basically you take the 3D Image of an in game character and put it ot a 3D Printer. If 38 Studios wanted to do it themselves then it is just a matter of buying the 3D Printers and pulling the character data files to generate the 3D image. Or they could just as easily just work out a deal with Figure Prints for them to handle it. I do think this would be uber cool.

[Kurik Lein]

Added these new posts to the OP.


I think it's very fair to ask what purpose levels even serve in modern MMO's..


For a huge set of players levels denote, call out, and acknowledge achievement. Levels are a way to recognize effort, achievement, dedication, whatever you want to call it or label it, for many players.

I always liked levels in my games.

Not to say I didn't like games without levels, because I did, but given the choice I liked it due to it's simplicity.

It gives me a ladder to climb, and imo HOW I climb the ladder is about as important to me, if not more so, than the actual climbing itself.

It's a game, my hobby, and I want to have fun playing it, whatever the system in place to denote progress.

I wasn't a fan of UO, mainly because of PVP, and me not being a PVP guy, but I think more so because everyone looked and acted the same. Everyone had the same skills, and abilities, and to me that was boring.

I like being able to be a monk, and the fact that ONLY (at launch) humans could be monks in EQ was, I think, the major reason I picked the class. I like that, I think that's cool.



I HATE entering a city and have 20 asshole NPCs telling me what to do. Especially when you are forced to listen to them.

If I want to kill everyone in the city instead of helping them, that is how I want to climb the ladder. If I just ruined some dude's ability to finish a quest because I beat down his NPC pal, than I had a good time.

Wutdo


The problem is that works fine when you killing all the NPCs doesn't impact other players, in an MMO, it does.

EDIT: Copernicus, and as always this is IMO only, will be an amazing MMO, an amazing experience for reasons that I believe MANY MMO players here will find awesome. Some won't, some of you guys will bitch and will gripe, that's likely the reason FoH is FoH.
It will NOT be an ability based sand box game, it just won't. So those of you that want that need not continue following this thread. Apologies if that was what you were hoping for.
It won't reinvent the wheel in many ways, but I do believe it will introduce some things promised, yet never done, and some things thought un'doable'. It may not be your cup of tea, but I am betting, roughly 40mm of my own money, and crap ton of others, that we will change the MMO space forever.
It will not be a twitched based combat system, it will have classes, it will have things I think MMO players love, and it will do them as well as anyone ever has.
I do believe we will move the genre forward, how much we do will likely be on you, the players, to determine on your own if we did what you had hoped, or did not.

[Fozzik]

So it sounds like classes will have strict roles that they fill, and it sounds like all races will not be able to be all classes. And it sounds like the "traditional" stand-still-and-hit-buttons combat system. hm.

I wonder... are the classes pigeon-holed into traditional holy trinity roles? Are the combat and encounter mechanics going to be designed around the strict holy trinity?

I'm kind of uncomfortable with the whole, "We're not going to reinvent the wheel" line. Scott Hartsman said that all the time about Rift, and any number of others have said it in the post-WoW era. I hope Curt doesn't mean it the same way others have..."We're making another WoW clone, but don't worry we're throwing a bit of mustard on top". The last thing the genre needs is another more shallow, more casual wheel (read: game based on trying to emulate WoW).

Of course these games are going to contain some fundamental elements in common, which make them part of the same genre and give them understandable legitimacy, but sometimes the wheel needs to be reinvented...or at least reimagined...a little bit. Sometimes the wheel isn't as round as the conventional wisdom says it is.

[Nybling]

Well, you can't say Scott Hartsman lied about not reinventing the wheel with Rift. :P

The class/race stuff doesn't bother me. As long as they don't do what Rift did with classes, everything should be fine. Rift's biggest problem is that the world felt small and soulless.

[Bossner]

So it sounds like classes will have strict roles that they fill, and it sounds like all races will not be able to be all classes. And it sounds like the "traditional" stand-still-and-hit-buttons combat system. hm.

That's exactly what it's going to be.

I'm fine with yet another WoW clone provided that it's at least as good as WoW. The problem with every WoW clone out there is that they're nowhere near the level of WoW. Rift had a terrible combat and class system, SWTOR is a single player game basically, and most others had countless other problems.

I'm guessing that what they're building is what Vanguard should have been: a rebirth of an older style of MMO with many modern comforts. I'm personally perfectly fine with that, and like Curt said, many people aren't going to be.

I mean, hell, I want my tanking class to ONLY be able to tank. I don't want trees, I don't want specs - I want to be a solid tank and that's all I do.

[Fozzik]

I can't have an opinion one way or the other until we get some details. I will say that I don't mind innovation at all when it solves old problems without throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Some of that type of innovation is really good, and I think vital to a game's success. You can't just make a stock-standard clone of supposedly tried-and-true mechanics and then drop a few shallow, worthless gimmicks on top and then justify it by saying things like, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

I don't think that was what Curt was doing at all...and I seriously doubt that's what 38S is doing with Copernicus. But we don't know until we know. :)

I've just about always played hybrids and/or pet classes in every MMORPG I've played...I don't like "just being a tank" when the only thing tanks do is stand in front of mobs and hit taunt. I like having a toolbox full of tricks that I can apply in unique ways depending on varying situations...and I love emergent play. If the mechanics are locked down to every encounter being tank and spank in some form...it's going to be pretty lame.

[Valdur]

I think the genre need some innovations may it be minor or huge I don't care but I don't want to play another WoW in some new outfit and makeup which will lose momentum after 3 months and turn into a F2P after 18 months.I 've already been there,it's time to move forward and I sincerely hope Copernicus will be that game.

Bossner,if the game improved on what Vanguard did I'll be more than satisfied and I'll definitely be a lifetime subscriber :)

[Famine]

I think the genre need some innovations may it be minor or huge I don't care but I don't want to play another WoW in some new outfit and makeup which will lose momentum after 3 months and turn into a F2P after 18 months.I 've already been there,it's time to move forward and I sincerely hope Copernicus will be that game.

Bossner,if the game improved on what Vanguard did I'll be more than satisfied and I'll definitely be a lifetime subscriber :)

I am of the same mind, if it is on par with Vanguard with some improments here and there then I am all in. This game won't be for everyone but I hope it will draw a lot of old Eqer's and other peoople looking for a more in depth game.

[Dash]

Never even batted an eye at Vanguard so I have no clue what the references are about, but I would not enjoy a WoW-clone because the mechanics to that are old and stale. Another game with combat not employing strategy or tactics and just focused on max-dps: No Thanks. Boss mobs that enrage (which forces a dps race in games) : No Thanks. PvP that is based around a time frame of victory (1 v 1) in seconds instead of minutes: Rather Not. WoW set some high standards in some areas, but they also DESTROYED the genre in other areas, anything to do with server pride or server community is one example. Anything to do with a person being responsable for their actions in public: Lamentable.

[Bossner]

Never even batted an eye at Vanguard so I have no clue what the references are about, but I would not enjoy a WoW-clone because the mechanics to that are old and stale. Another game with combat not employing strategy or tactics and just focused on max-dps: No Thanks. Boss mobs that enrage (which forces a dps race in games) : No Thanks. PvP that is based around a time frame of victory (1 v 1) in seconds instead of minutes: Rather Not. WoW set some high standards in some areas, but they also DESTROYED the genre in other areas, anything to do with server pride or server community is one example. Anything to do with a person being responsable for their actions in public: Lamentable.

When I mean WoW clone I mean gameplay in terms of how the game flows, not necessarily the finer details such as that.

[Mopar63]

If this game is a WoW style clone it will be hurting itself more than I can say. People are wanting something fresh, something different. And while Amalur may be a great game world it is not truly all that fresh. Yes it is a new IP but the story line is VERY classic and while this is great it also has the downfall of being a bit simplistic at times as well. To then take that world and slap a WoW system, a system that has been cloned, and copied to death , on it would make a neat release that would not really excel.

[Bossner]

If this game is a WoW style clone it will be hurting itself more than I can say. People are wanting something fresh, something different. And while Amalur may be a great game world it is not truly all that fresh. Yes it is a new IP but the story line is VERY classic and while this is great it also has the downfall of being a bit simplistic at times as well. To then take that world and slap a WoW system, a system that has been cloned, and copied to death , on it would make a neat release that would not really excel.

That's just the thing: WoW's system has never been cloned. People have tried to copy it and they've failed miserably.

Simply labeling something a WoW clone doesn't mean that it's a true copy. GW2 could be labeled a WoW clone, and so could TERA, despite them BOTH having reasonably different combat types.

The problem is people don't know what they want. They say they want drastically different, but the problem with that is they honestly have no idea how different they want it. It needs to be familiar enough so that people feel comfortable playing it, yet it needs to feel different enough (in a positive direction) that they feel it's something new.

Tweaking an already winning formula (what Curt's all-but-said they're doing, so get used to it) is what is going to be a successful title. NOT doing something so different that it's insanely niche.

Any MMO these days could be called a "WoW clone", and the primary thing about this genre that needs to be fixed is that people are afraid of games playing at all like WoW. It's time to get over it and accept the fact that you can draw similarities regardless of the game.

[Kurik Lein]

Curt said they will try a few new things and that's all I want, something similar with some twists in a new world.

Anyways here's another post.


Seriously, with so much of your own money on the line... I don't think anyone wishes you ill. Just hoping the game lives up to what you're putting out there because many of us have heard it all before.


You honestly haven't. What you've ALL heard before is people spending OTHER peoples money to make THEIR game. We are making a game I DO want to play, but we aren't making MY game, and I think that is an enormous difference.

We are making a game that started with MY money, and that is a big difference imo. It doesn't make me immune from scathing posts but it's an ENORMOUS difference, whether you agree or not.

The rants will continue, and I get it.

My "job" is to create a company that can grow, and become something huge, at least as I see it. That comes from creating a team and a culture these people WANT to belong to, forever. That's different, at least it is to me.

But at the end of the day it will come down to what you said earlier, we have to make a fun game, a game you WANT to play, a world you WANT to be in, to be involved in, to save, to be heroic in, to have fun in, etc.

[Bossner]

Curt said they will try a few new things and that's all I want, something similar with some twists in a new world.

Anyways here's another post.

Same. I think we're the types of people they're designing for.

[Leorwen]

I hope so, but I doubt it. My wishlist is too ridiculous.

Well...maybe not, but it certainly wouldn't cater to the mass-market MMO crowd and would ultimately have to rely on subscription revenue rather than box sales to turn a profit, which seems to be an increasingly unpopular business model.

Come to think of it, I might have fun pulling out the old soap box and writing up my MMO wishlist Agra style.

[agra]

You definitely should. I've been considering consolidating the positive/innovative ideas out of the "lessons learned" in my signature into a hypothetical design document for a hypothetical MMO.

More of a positive spin might make it more attractive, who knows. I love me some rants, though! :)

[Mopar63]

T
The problem is people don't know what they want.

I actually know exactly what I want and what I do not want. I do not want every player to be basically the same. A healer should not be able to keep up with a DPS class for damage, a DPS class should not be able to tank. We see way to many MMOs take all the different aspects of the game and turn them into meaningless crap in the so called name of game balance. A healer should not be able to solo like a DPS or tank, they should be a different style of play. THAT is one thing I want real differences that impact the play style, a real reason for choosing what you choose.

I also do not want an action system that is like very other MMO, tab to target then mash 3,2,1,1,1,2,3,1,1,2,1,3 and so on. Personally I love the combat system in Reckoning and would love to see it make it way to an MMO, no more of the mindless number mashing crap were the skill is just how quick you press.

Just some of the many things I know I want.

[Union]

You definitely should. I've been considering consolidating the positive/innovative ideas out of the "lessons learned" in my signature into a hypothetical design document for a hypothetical MMO.
You really should do that.

[Dubhridir]

Same. I think we're the types of people they're designing for.

Same here, he doesn't have to re-invent the wheel.... but a redesign to make it better is what I think they're shooting for.

[Bossner]

I also do not want an action system that is like very other MMO, tab to target then mash 3,2,1,1,1,2,3,1,1,2,1,3 and so on. Personally I love the combat system in Reckoning and would love to see it make it way to an MMO, no more of the mindless number mashing crap were the skill is just how quick you press..

Combat in Reckoning will never be in an MMO in our lifetimes. Until ping times are less than 10ms coast-to-coast, MMO combat will be severely "limited" to 3,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,3,2,3,1,1,1.

[Mopar63]

We can dream.....

[Kurik Lein]

And here's another post.


I will agree with this, and what I was thinking (but failed to say) when I wrote I wanted to feel that "there was a grander story being told." As a Human in WoW, I thought the Deadmines questline was amazing, and by the time I finished (in spite of the tedious collection quests) I felt like there was a story far bigger than my own going on in the world.

Then it kind of petered out and the rest of the game felt like "Okay, now that you beat the Defias, go kill undead in that scary forest over there/animals in the mountains/whatever. Drop the pointless collection quests and offer a few epic questlines akin to the Defias Brotherhood one.


Gotta tell you SWtoR did this for me. My NPC buddies made me a hero, or at least feel superior. And it wasn't from jump street.

I think there's another angle here. What if we made you feel different, special? Then made the world something epic and awesome, then made you important in that, then made you matter in the future of that.

All of that wrapped up in an extremely polished and fun game.

[Argarith]

Even 10ms might not be enough. Individual latency and connection speeds also affect all players, so you could imagine people teleporting around swinging weapons.

It's already fun getting killed from behind a wall in games like TF2 simply because of the latency differences between players.

[Bossner]

Even 10ms might not be enough. Individual latency and connection speeds also affect all players, so you could imagine people teleporting around swinging weapons.

It's already fun getting killed from behind a wall in games like TF2 simply because of the latency differences between players.

Right.

I mean, if you know anything about the design of the first modern MMOs, EQ2 and WoW, the entire point of the global cooldown (GCD) is to give players the same effective connection speed regardless of the speed of their lines, or more importantly, the route that their data takes to get there.

A guy with a 50mbs down connection is just as slow as a guy with a 2mbs down connection if the guy with the fast connection passes through a slow node connecting to the server.

In 2004, 1.5 seconds was the delay on a 0ms ping needed to make sure that enough people could be made equal. I don't know that it'd be much lower today.

[Argarith]

In 2004, 1.5 seconds was the delay on a 0ms ping needed to make sure that enough people could be made equal. I don't know that it'd be much lower today.
The fun thing is that it wouldn't be much lower at all. I'm not sure about the US, but Canada has a really bad ISPs. Everything is overpriced due to a lack of competition (all of the connections are owned by a few major telecom companies, and other ISPs have to rent it), so you could imagine what "unlimited" bandwidth actually costs. The fun thing is that they don't even want to offer "unlimited" bandwidth, they try their hardest to deny such a service (recently, major ISPs tried passing a bill called the UBB....look it up to see the obvious money hording). So, I don't see any time soon when ISPs will decrease costs sufficiently to allow a much, much faster connection for everyone at a reasonable cost.

Of course I would want something like reckoning, everyone would, but that's just not reasonable at this point in time, and people need to face the facts. :(

[agra]

It's worth noting that eq2 for a very long time had no global cooldown of any kind. It was very engaging combat with 30+ abilities. :)

I think they added one of a very small value (either 500ms or 50ms) after the last round of sweeping combat changes. I'd have to search through the patch notes to find the exact value. Individual ability refresh timers are used instead.

I'm not a fan of the global cooldown mechanic, and I've made that clear in the past. Making players stand around waiting for 1.5 seconds is no longer necessary.
IMHO, 250-500ms would be a reasonable GCD, if one needs to exist at all with your particular MMO mechanics.

I'm also getting very tired of seeing long casting times combined with "you must move or die" mechanics and calling this challenging. If I have to move every 2.1 seconds, or die, and I MUST cast a spell that takes 2 seconds to cast, it's not skill. It's latency margin of error and it sucks!
:coolmunch:

It's like there's a whole generation of MMO devs who think "luck", instant-death-mechanics and the random-number-generator determining win or lose is FUN rather than genuine teamwork. They can kiss my gnomish ass.

[Bossner]

It's worth noting that eq2 for a very long time had no global cooldown of any kind. It was very engaging combat with 30+ abilities. :)

I think they added one of a very small value (either 500ms or 50ms) after the last round of sweeping combat changes. I'd have to search through the patch notes to find the exact value. Individual ability refresh timers are used instead.

I'm not a fan of the global cooldown mechanic, and I've made that clear in the past. Making players stand around waiting for 1.5 seconds is no longer necessary.
IMHO, 250-500ms would be a reasonable GCD, if one needs to exist at all with your particular MMO mechanics.

I'm also getting very tired of seeing long casting times combined with "you must move or die" mechanics and calling this challenging. If I have to move every 2.1 seconds, or die, and I MUST cast a spell that takes 2 seconds to cast, it's not skill. It's latency margin of error and it sucks!
:coolmunch:

It's like there's a whole generation of MMO devs who think "luck", instant-death-mechanics and the random-number-generator determining win or lose is FUN rather than genuine teamwork. They can kiss my gnomish ass.

Different solution for the same problem. :p


Of course I would want something like reckoning, everyone would, but that's just not reasonable at this point in time, and people need to face the facts. :(

Honestly? I don't want anything like Reckoning in an MMO. People blast MMOs that come up with "wow style combat", saying that it's old, simple, boring, whatever. AND THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE WHO CANNOT PERFORM IN THAT PARADIGM. There are people who are legitimately BAD at PvE combat in WoW. There are people who cannot use the slightest bit of critical thinking (and I'm not even talking about research here, just looking at how certain spells line up when used in a certain order) to sustain a reasonable minimum amount of damage per second.

That's not to say I'm a meters / min/max DPS fiend, but there comes a point where tanking for a group who's playing like their heads and hands have been smashed with hammers becomes super frustrating, especially when you're capable on performing better on your undergeared alt that you powerleveled to max level and haven't bothered to respec for max level, glyph up, research rotation, etc.

I mean, there are some people who are atrociously bad at what's considered simple combat. I shiver at the thought of having to rely on DPS to perform in an action combat scenario where things are happening that much faster and they're required to dodge more than the fire on the ground that DBM warns them about 37 minutes in advance.

[agra]

From the FOH forums (http://www.fohguild.org/forums/2328133-post12476.html), which I am not paying $25 to post on...


Can we get a legitimate definition of what "WoW clone" means? Are we even speaking the same language?
I keep hearing this, and wondering exactly what the poster means.
I think for purposes of this thread in this discussion it might behoove us to define "WoW clone" going forward.

And my Not-$25-Response, because I like to quote myself, and share my own narrow selfish ranting opinions:


... I've been meaning to write a post regarding what it means for a game to -really- be a WoW clone, as the term is thrown around so much.

The short version:

What makes a game a WoW clone:
-it has the same races (more than half of them)
-it has the same intellectual property
-it has the same lore
-it has the same locations/geography
-it has the same artistic style
-it has the same textures
-it has the same models
-it has the same animations
-it has exactly the same programmed in-game mechanics, down to the byte

What does NOT make a game a WoW clone:
-it has different races
-it has different intellectual property
-it has different lore
-it has different locations / geography
-it has different artistic style(s)
-it has different textures
-it has different models
-it has different animations
-it has different programmed in-game mechanics, differing by as little as one byte.

If ANY aspect of an MMO is different or the same, it simply shares one, some, a little or a lot with WoW. However, to say that a game is a clone of WoW, a clone being IDENTICAL IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY to the original, simply because it shares one feature is false.

A specific example:
"<insert name of MMO here> is a nothing but a WoW clone because there are rows of buttons for actions and a scrolling box of text for chatting and the combat log"
WRONG. It has an interface element that has been common in MMO's since Meridian 59. M59 First launched online in an early form on December 15, 1995. Guess when WoW launched? November 23, 2004. Yes, NINE YEARS between an MMO with an interface similar to WoW, and WoW itself. How similar? A matter of opinion.

Everquest 1 launched on the 16th of March, 1999. At least 4.5 years passed between the launch of EQ1 and the launch of WoW.

One shared feature does not a clone make. 49 features out of 100 does not a clone make. 99 features out of a 100, ok, we're getting close to "clone".

There. I've said it. Now I can refer to myself in the future. :grinmunch: phew!

Now as far as the FOH forums go? A WoW clone is a game that you play with more than one person with rows of buttons for actions and a scrolling box of text for chatting and the combat log. :swearingmunch:

[Garmr]

$25 to post on FoH? Huh?

As for the topic, a clone for me is a game that is so similar in a majority of respects that for all intents you may as well be playing the "original".

[agra]

... As for the topic, a clone for me is a game that is so similar in a majority of respects that for all intents you may as well be playing the "original".
So what games currently on the market fit your definition of "WoW Clone" for you, Garmr?

[Bossner]

So what games currently on the market fit your definition of "WoW Clone" for you, Garmr?

I won't answers for Garmr, but for myself, Rift most certainly. It's close enough as you can get to being a WoW clone without quite getting there. WAR possibly - but I wouldn't say it's a clone.

I think when people say WoW clone they mean the type of quest hub system that Wow brought to the genre (at least I think they did. Any earlier MMOs do quests like WoW did?)

In EQ you grinded in groups at camps for the most part. In EQ2, you did something similar - at least at launch. WoW was really the first where you could solo to max level regardless of your class andt he game really streamlined that for you.

[Narria]

Man I fondly remember the days I camped giants in EQ1. Rooting them to the ground, throwing dots on them and sitting and waiting for the root to fade, rise and repeat. I think that's definitely where I got my "OMG I can't melee" mentality. I learned early on in MMOs that getting hit was a bad thing and you did everything you could to avoid it :)

Anyways, sorry for the derail. It's Bossner's fault ;)

[Fozzik]

When I say WoW clone, I think it's a bit different from how some of you are defining it...but I think it's a bit closer to what people generally MEAN when they say "WoW clone". That's always the trick...trying to figure out what people mean as opposed to what they say.

For me (and I think others who may not be able to nail it down quite as well), when I say "WoW clone" or more often, "WoW-formula"... what I mean is:

A game which incorporates a substantial number of the same mechanics, systems, core elements, and philosophies as World of Warcraft...

AND...

**This part is really important**

They are incorporating all those mechanics, systems, and philosophies BECAUSE they are looking squarely at WoW and its success, and trying to duplicate it.

To me, that's what people are trying to say when they say "WoW-clone". They are saying that the development company is looking squarely at World of Warcraft and its success, and trying to duplicate its success by duplicating, or distilling the formula of, what they THINK made WoW successful.

Two significant things to note about the large number of WoW-formula games which have been developed in the last 5-6 years:

1. None of them come anywhere remotely close to the success of WoW. They may sell a million+ boxes, maybe even 2 or 3 million, but they always start losing substantial players very shortly after release, and experience a rapid decline in players until they end up with either niche numbers, or going free to play. WoW's population was not only stable...but GREW by leaps and bounds for several years after launch. Obviously, a majority of developers in the post-WoW genre have failed miserably at duplicating WoW's success by looking only at WoW. In fact, I would contend that it's just flat impossible to do.

2. WoW was designed in a pre-WoW genre. This is a key point that I think 99% of developers have been missing. They are trying to duplicate WoW's success by looking at WoW, and almost nothing else...whereas Blizzard was looking at an entirely different landscape and player base when they designed WoW. I'm honestly not sure that even Blizzard could make a game as successful as WoW in the post-WoW genre. It's a massive elephant in the room, and I think it's given developers some pretty warped ideas about what players want and who plays these games. It's the single outlier datapoint that has completely ruined all the graphs and analysis of what's really going on. I think the next major success in the genre will be designed by developers who are able to look past WoW at the MMORPG landscape prior to its success...and get a much more complete picture of what makes these games good and the players who are really served by this genre.

Anyway, Curt... I think there's a good chance that if some random person on a message board is using "WoW clone" ...the above definition is likely what they are trying to convey.

[agra]

And yet, Fozzik, every time I read it, my impression of the terms use is negative.

I've rarely/never read it used in a positive context. It's not like people say "This is gonna be awesome! It's a WoW Clone!" rather they tend to say "This is gonna suck! It's a WoW Clone!". You may be right in your interpretation of the term, it just seems you've got a rather positive spin on it.

[Bossner]

When I say WoW clone, I think it's a bit different from how some of you are defining it...but I think it's a bit closer to what people generally MEAN when they say "WoW clone". That's always the trick...trying to figure out what people mean as opposed to what they say.

For me (and I think others who may not be able to nail it down quite as well), when I say "WoW clone" or more often, "WoW-formula"... what I mean is:

A game which incorporates a substantial number of the same mechanics, systems, core elements, and philosophies as World of Warcraft...

AND...

**This part is really important**

They are incorporating all those mechanics, systems, and philosophies BECAUSE they are looking squarely at WoW and its success, and trying to duplicate it.

To me, that's what people are trying to say when they say "WoW-clone". They are saying that the development company is looking squarely at World of Warcraft and its success, and trying to duplicate its success by duplicating, or distilling the formula of, what they THINK made WoW successful.

Two significant things to note about the large number of WoW-formula games which have been developed in the last 5-6 years:

1. None of them come anywhere remotely close to the success of WoW. They may sell a million+ boxes, maybe even 2 or 3 million, but they always start losing substantial players very shortly after release, and experience a rapid decline in players until they end up with either niche numbers, or going free to play. WoW's population was not only stable...but GREW by leaps and bounds for several years after launch. Obviously, a majority of developers in the post-WoW genre have failed miserably at duplicating WoW's success by looking only at WoW. In fact, I would contend that it's just flat impossible to do.

2. WoW was designed in a pre-WoW genre. This is a key point that I think 99% of developers have been missing. They are trying to duplicate WoW's success by looking at WoW, and almost nothing else...whereas Blizzard was looking at an entirely different landscape and player base when they designed WoW. I'm honestly not sure that even Blizzard could make a game as successful as WoW in the post-WoW genre. It's a massive elephant in the room, and I think it's given developers some pretty warped ideas about what players want and who plays these games. It's the single outlier datapoint that has completely ruined all the graphs and analysis of what's really going on. I think the next major success in the genre will be designed by developers who are able to look past WoW at the MMORPG landscape prior to its success...and get a much more complete picture of what makes these games good and the players who are really served by this genre.

Anyway, Curt... I think there's a good chance that if some random person on a message board is using "WoW clone" ...the above definition is likely what they are trying to convey.

This is the vaguest, most generalized thing I've ever read.

Using this guideline, I could literally point to any MMO released after WoW and call it a Wow clone.

[Garmr]

So what games currently on the market fit your definition of "WoW Clone" for you, Garmr?

Right now the closest to WoW is Rift without a doubt, though I personally still see them as distinct games each with thier own (similar) flaws. Though I have a personal definition of the term in my head, the term "WoW clone" isn't one I ever liked. I tend to base a game strictly on it's own merits and judge it from there. There never is an exact copy as even the smallest change in nuance can affect how a variety of people feel about the same game.

C'pus can wind up looking like WoW (please no) and playing like EQ and 50/100 folks will call it a WoW clone and vice versa. For me there's one thing that no game can clone tho and that's the community that sprouts up around and winds up in game, they are all different and all what makes or breaks a game for me. Graphics I like but can play with "not the best", gameplay is pretty important to me in how we interact with the world through combat, encounters, trade etc but nothing for me trumps community. They could bring back a game with the greatest graphics and gameplay to die for, drop WoW's community in the world and I'm not playing. Period.

[RingX55]

The only thing that Copernicus needs from WoW is the polish that it has. I don't think any other MMORPG out there has the polish that it does.

[Fozzik]

Really? I don't feel like it's a positive spin at all... developers trying to duplicate WoW's success by making as many of the same design decisions as they can? It's game design by checklist. It's especially negative because it ALWAYS fails. There isn't a single example of someone making a WoW clone and coming even remotely close to the same ballpark as WoW's success. When I call something a WoW-formula game, it follows that the game is going to lose the majority of it's subscribers in its first few months post-release. That's definitely not a positive.

Sitting in design meetings and saying "WoW is the gold standard, and what player's expect. If we want to make a AAA mass-market casual-friendly, millions-of-subscriptions MMORPG, then we should do it like Blizzard does in WoW." (which is exactly what games like Rift and SW:TOR did) has been an extremely pervasive mentality...so much so that it's basically conventional wisdom. Again, though... it's CLEARLY not what players want. They see it as an extremely negative thing, not only because pretty much everyone is sick of that game at this point, but also because it shows a complete lack of vision in terms of the genre as a whole. Designing with WoW goggles on is a cop-out...it means you aren't really providing your own take on the genre. People are sick of games that copy WoW in an attempt to steal its player base.

Players are sick to death of the systems, mechanics, and philosophy behind them always being the same in every game (due to developers all copying the same play book). They want variety... depth...something MORE and greater and even better in some ways (Blizzard's way of solving the genres old problems certianly isn't the only way to solve said problems)

[Fozzik]

This is the vaguest, most generalized thing I've ever read.

Using this guideline, I could literally point to any MMO released after WoW and call it a Wow clone.

Well... YEAH. That's kind of the point. They all have been, with very few exceptions. WoW's design has become the Bible of MMORPG development...and it's just a question of how each new company decides to interpret the golden game. (to me, this clearly is and has been a bad thing for the genre...it's really been holding things back and players are more and more luke-warm with each new clone)

There are some exceptions, of course...and I think we are coming to the end of the WoW-clone era. Games like Guild Wars 2 and TSW and hopefully Copernicus will be providing their own take on the genre with some fresh thinking and some re-evaluation of the conventional wisdom that everyone's been using since WoW got so huge.

It doesn't mean those games will definitely be monster smash successful...they may bomb. But at least they'll be different in philosophy and implementation.

[Bossner]

Well... YEAH. That's kind of the point. They all have been, with very few exceptions. WoW's design has become the Bible of MMORPG development...and it's just a question of how each new company decides to interpret the golden game. (to me, this clearly is and has been a bad thing for the genre...it's really been holding things back and players are more and more luke-warm with each new clone)

There are some exceptions, of course...and I think we are coming to the end of the WoW-clone era. Games like Guild Wars 2 and TSW and hopefully Copernicus will be providing their own take on the genre with some fresh thinking and some re-evaluation of the conventional wisdom that everyone's been using since WoW got so huge.

It doesn't mean those games will definitely be monster smash successful...they may bomb. But at least they'll be different in philosophy and implementation.

Yeah but using what you said above, I can easily turn GW2 into a WoW clone. IN FACT.

One might say that GW2, in terms of game philosophy, is more a WoW clone than any other game released thus far.

[Fozzik]

Except it's not. In fact, now that we know about their cash shop economy, it's even less like WoW than it was before.

If nothing else, the definition doesn't fit because the GW2 devs were clearly not using WoW as a blueprint. In fact, they clearly ignored WoW completely and looked at early games in the genre for many decisions. Elements and philosophy from EQ, UO, DAoC, AC and others...and then things like level scaling, no virtical gear progression, no treadmill endgame, no raids, and dynamic events replacing quests as the primary leveling mechanic... it's just totally not the same. =\

EDIT: Oh, and don't forget combat...I outlined some of the substantial differences there in the combat thread. Really the only thing that appears to be somewhat lifted from WoW is the crafting...and GW2 allows for discovering recipies and has crafting experience instead of skill points...so even that isn't the same.

I'm not saying I love GW2 (clearly I'm quite peaved at their business model), but I will say that it's definitely not a WoW clone. They've earned that distinction.

[Nybling]

$25 to post on FoH? Huh?

As for the topic, a clone for me is a game that is so similar in a majority of respects that for all intents you may as well be playing the "original".

For newer accounts. I have an older user name I can use to post on FOH, but I never feel the need to.

[Bossner]

Except it's not. In fact, now that we know about their cash shop economy, it's even less like WoW than it was before.

If nothing else, the definition doesn't fit because the GW2 devs were clearly not using WoW as a blueprint. In fact, they clearly ignored WoW completely and looked at early games in the genre for many decisions. Elements and philosophy from EQ, UO, DAoC, AC and others...and then things like level scaling, no virtical gear progression, no treadmill endgame, no raids, and dynamic events replacing quests as the primary leveling mechanic... it's just totally not the same. =\

EDIT: Oh, and don't forget combat...I outlined some of the substantial differences there in the combat thread. Really the only thing that appears to be somewhat lifted from WoW is the crafting...and GW2 allows for discovering recipies and has crafting experience instead of skill points...so even that isn't the same.

I'm not saying I love GW2 (clearly I'm quite peaved at their business model), but I will say that it's definitely not a WoW clone. They've earned that distinction.

I disagree completely. It's easy to hit the level cap (WoW). There's a huge push toward casual players (WoW). Crafting is right out of WoW. You can solo to level cap (WoW). Dynamic events are lifted right out of Rift and Warhammer, which are the king and queen of all WoW clones.

There's so many similarities that if I"m using your vague "What's a WoW clone?" criteria, I can literally make any game a WoW clone. Cartoony graphics? GW2 got it! WoW clone. Making the game more accesible? WoW clone.

I don't think I need to go on.

Do I personally think GW2 is a WoW clone? No, but by your own criteria it is.

[Garmr]

For newer accounts. I have an older user name I can use to post on FOH, but I never feel the need to.

Ahh gotcha, I'm there since 02' and never noticed.

[agra]

Ahh gotcha, I'm there since 02' and never noticed.

Yeah, I had an older account from around 2005 I think, but for the life of me, can't remember the details, so.. meh. The signal-to-noise is so low it pains my brain to read more than a few posts on there, so probably better that I abstain in any case. heheh.

[Malikai]

Yeah, I had an older account from around 2005 I think, but for the life of me, can't remember the details, so.. meh. The signal-to-noise is so low it pains my brain to read more than a few posts on there, so probably better that I abstain in any case. heheh.

Likewise. Will scroll through occasionally, stay current with a few old friends, and jet before I get sucked into the abyss.

[Fozzik]

Bless you, Bos...it's hard to love you sometimes. But I do. :D


I disagree completely. It's easy to hit the level cap (WoW).

What happens at level cap? Completely different. How do you get to level cap? Completely different. Oh, and getting to level cap in the original Guild Wars was much faster than in WoW.


There's a huge push toward casual players (WoW).

I'll give you that one to a certain extent...but to be honest, the original Guild Wars was targeted at casual, non-MMORPG gamers...so the sequel doing the same thing doesn't make it a clone of WoW. Just makes it a sequel.


Crafting is right out of WoW.

I mentioned that in my post. It is somewhat similar, but they fundamentally changed the philosophy behind it (no grinding and making tons of useless stuff to skill up like in WoW), and they changed the mechanics substantially - anyone can harvest all types of materials... resource nodes are phased so everyone has their own...discovering recipes by doing no-loss combines.


You can solo to level cap (WoW).

Again, that's somewhat true, but they are following up the original Guild Wars, which was even more solo-oriented than WoW was.


Dynamic events are lifted right out of Rift and Warhammer, which are the king and queen of all WoW clones.

The dynamic events in GW2 are substantially different (there's a lot more to them) than the public quests in Rift and Warhammer. And...wait... if GW2 had copied (which they didn't), that's one of the ONLY elements in Rift and Warhammer that's DIFFERENT than WoW. So... copying an aspect from two other games which isn't in WoW does not make it a WoW clone.




There's so many similarities that if I"m using your vague "What's a WoW clone?" criteria, I can literally make any game a WoW clone. Cartoony graphics? GW2 got it! WoW clone. Making the game more accesible? WoW clone.

GW2 doesn't have cartoony graphics. It has stylized painterly graphics. This is a matter of personal aesthetics, though...it makes no difference if the graphics look subjectively similar to you.




Do I personally think GW2 is a WoW clone? No, but by your own criteria it is.
You didn't pay attention to all the criteria. Just having a few elements in common does not make something a WoW clone. The second part is vital...the devs have to have been intentionally and blatantly copying WoW as a matter of course. You would have to do much better than the stuff you mentioned above to make a case that ArenaNet was using WoW as a template or trying to copy the formula. The games are very different in many ways, even beyond what I mentioned in my above post.

Games like Rift, Warhammer, and SW:TOR came right out and SAID they were using WoW as a template and gold standard for their designs. It should come as no surprise that they are WoW clones. And yes, as the sheep would say, that's baaaaaaad.

[Bossner]

You didn't pay attention to all the criteria. Just having a few elements in common does not make something a WoW clone. The second part is vital...the devs have to have been intentionally and blatantly copying WoW as a matter of course. You would have to do much better than the stuff you mentioned above to make a case that ArenaNet was using WoW as a template or trying to copy the formula. The games are very different in many ways, even beyond what I mentioned in my above post.

Who's left to judge that? Clearly I've shown that I can skew anything to make it sound like they were intentionally and blatantly copying. I think a better solution would be to list specific features that were first made popular in WoW but are now tired and rehashed. If you leave it as it, a game is going to have to be so radically different that no parallels at all could be drawn.

Copernicus could be just like EQ with modern amenities and could be called a WoW clone. How is that fair, or even correct?

[Fozzik]

Who's left to judge that? Clearly I've shown that I can skew anything to make it sound like they were intentionally and blatantly copying. I think a better solution would be to list specific features that were first made popular in WoW but are now tired and rehashed. If you leave it as it, a game is going to have to be so radically different that no parallels at all could be drawn.


It's usually very clear, either by listening to what the devs say (like I mentioned, they often spell out that they are using WoW as their template), or by looking at their design. You know that Rift is a WoW clone...nobody had to explain that to you. It's generally quite obvious that they intentionally copied a lot of the game because they felt it would attract a WoW-sized player base. It never does.



Copernicus could be just like EQ with modern amenities and could be called a WoW clone. How is that fair, or even correct?
No...because if they used EQ as their template, instead of WoW...it wouldn't be a WoW clone. Again, their intentions are central. DO they intend to copy WoW because they feel it's the way to WoW success? If the answer to that question is no, and there just happen to end up being some similarities because both games are in the same genre...that's not a WoW clone. You are aware, aren't you, that there are a ton of massive (almost polar opposite) differences between the philosophy and design of WoW and EQ? I hope? If copernicus follows the design philosophy of EQ and just adds modern amenities...the game will be VERY different from WoW.

[Fozzik]

Here's a really easy litmus test for Curt Schilling or any other MMORPG developer.

One question.

Are you intentionally using World of Warcraft specifically as the template, or gold standard, for what an MMORPG should be, and are you attempting to distill blizzard's formula for success in the majority of your design decisions?

If they can honestly answer that question with a no, then they are not a WoW clone. End of story.

If they proudly answer yes, like in the case of SW:TOR... well there you go.

[Bossner]

It's usually very clear, either by listening to what the devs say (like I mentioned, they often spell out that they are using WoW as their template), or by looking at their design. You know that Rift is a WoW clone...nobody had to explain that to you. It's generally quite obvious that they intentionally copied a lot of the game because they felt it would attract a WoW-sized player base. It never does.


No...because if they used EQ as their template, instead of WoW...it wouldn't be a WoW clone. Again, their intentions are central. DO they intend to copy WoW because they feel it's the way to WoW success? If the answer to that question is no, and there just happen to end up being some similarities because both games are in the same genre...that's not a WoW clone. You are aware, aren't you, that there are a ton of massive (almost polar opposite) differences between the philosophy and design of WoW and EQ? I hope? If copernicus follows the design philosophy of EQ and just adds modern amenities...the game will be VERY different from WoW.

I think that, while your idea of what makes a WoW clone a WoW clone could hold up on its own, you might be one of the few people who have anything resembling "developer intention" in their criteria. I think you'd be hard-pressed to convince anyone that intentions factor into it.

[Bossner]

Here's a really easy litmus test for Curt Schilling or any other MMORPG developer.

One question.

Are you intentionally using World of Warcraft specifically as the template, or gold standard, for what an MMORPG should be, and are you attempting to distill blizzard's formula for success in the majority of your design decisions?

If they can honestly answer that question with a no, then they are not a WoW clone. End of story.

If they proudly answer yes, like in the case of SW:TOR... well there you go.

I remember the TOR developers doing the exact opposite, actually.

[Fozzik]

I remember the TOR developers doing the exact opposite, actually.

I remember a developer interview with someone from BioWare who specifically said WoW was the gold standard and players expected familiarity.... I can't find it right now, but that shouldn't matter. One only has to look at the game to clearly see what they did.

I'm going to tap out at this point. We're making no headway at all. Hopefully if Curt reads this thread, he'll find something useful in it somewhere.

[Bossner]

I remember a developer interview with someone from BioWare who specifically said WoW was the gold standard and players expected familiarity.... I can't find it right now, but that shouldn't matter. One only has to look at the game to clearly see what they did.

I'm going to tap out at this point. We're making no headway at all. Hopefully if Curt reads this thread, he'll find something useful in it somewhere.

That one combat video, the one developer is like "You're not going to be doing things you do in other MMOs." They made fun of it by showing him saying that, and then showed TOR's combat.

[Dash]

The reason for my activies in SW:TOR lasting an ENTIRE month was because the same old stale combat mechanics, the unimaginative same ole PvP, and the same ole rapid leveling speed. To me, whether everyone calls it a WoW clone or not is completely irrelevent next to it being the same old stale mechanics that are very similar to WoW's. Where it wasn't a WoW clone was the pvp was horrible (meaning simple and laggy) and the clothing graphics were generic at best. Not sure I would lump Warhammer into the WoW clone mentality as there were a few nice unique ideas and combat innovations that differentiate that game apart from WoW.

[Malikai]

seems to have drawn some more attention.

http://www.mmorpg.com/newsroom.cfm/read/23904/General-Copernicus-What-It-Wont-Be.

[Dash]

Well ,that link was a waste of a perfectly good chunk of my life reading most of that drivel.

[DeathtoGnomes]

want a napkin for that drool?

[Dash]

Wasn't drool, it was my eyes bleeding from reading all the whiners jumping to very definitive conclusions about a very abstract statement.

[Fozzik]

Wasn't drool, it was my eyes bleeding from reading all the whiners jumping to very definitive conclusions about a very abstract statement.

First time at mmorpg.com? hehe

[Dash]

Yes actually it was...... and last

[lostforever]

I hate that site too. It has lot of those "cool" kids hanging out in there :)