Copernicus Pricing

[DeathtoGnomes]

I think that Bossner is a fine example of elitist attitude. But to so easily dismiss easy added, sellable content makes it a weak viewpoint to a developer. That kind of attitude is very inconsiderate of other people and their play styles. We all want and pay for the games that we think will look good and play good and that means paying for full game, thats full of all kinds of content for all play styles, so why would any developer shoot themselves in the foot by only making a half a game, or by catering to only one type of crowd? That would be insanely dumb. I have created my own worlds to DM, the hard part is creating the base world, content is easy to add from there as long as you have a outline. I would really be amiss if I only added monsters and no item rewards, if I was really hardcore I wouldnt even add quests. How many players would laugh at me and walk out if I didnt even add a storyline? I'm not paying for a sandbox anymore, its boring, without rewards to work towards. I've become a casual player over the years, I'll still do some raiding when its needed as long as it not required. I'm not paying for a game that only caters to one type of crowd, its clearly only half of a game. Are there any PVP only games and how many are out there? How many have are as successful as our current collection of mixed games? Now imagine a hardcore only game, I cant cuz it would be filled full of elitists like most end-game raiders, the annoying people that cry for every little thing they dont like.

You can't subscribe to a game you didnt buy and not many will buy a content poor, half-made game. The game has to have enough merit to deserve subscribing to.

[Kurik Lein]

Sort of off-topic but Notch is coming out with a new game that will require a monthly fee and when asked about F2P this was the reply.

Whaaaaaaaat ? Monthly fee ? But, but, but, free 2 play is the futur dude !

f2p is a scam.

[Fozzik]

Any payment method can be a scam. It just depends on the game is designed and how the business model is implemented. Like selling a lifetime subscription to a game like Rift is pretty much a complete scam.

I'll be interested to see what their game actually looks like, if it ever comes to fruition. That will determine whether their oh-so-honest monthly fee is worth it or not.

[Kurik Lein]

I think it will be released, too many fans of Notch and Minecraft for it not to.

[Bossner]

I think that Bossner is a fine example of elitist attitude. But to so easily dismiss easy added, sellable content makes it a weak viewpoint to a developer. That kind of attitude is very inconsiderate of other people and their play styles. We all want and pay for the games that we think will look good and play good and that means paying for full game, thats full of all kinds of content for all play styles, so why would any developer shoot themselves in the foot by only making a half a game, or by catering to only one type of crowd? That would be insanely dumb. I have created my own worlds to DM, the hard part is creating the base world, content is easy to add from there as long as you have a outline. I would really be amiss if I only added monsters and no item rewards, if I was really hardcore I wouldnt even add quests. How many players would laugh at me and walk out if I didnt even add a storyline? I'm not paying for a sandbox anymore, its boring, without rewards to work towards. I've become a casual player over the years, I'll still do some raiding when its needed as long as it not required. I'm not paying for a game that only caters to one type of crowd, its clearly only half of a game. Are there any PVP only games and how many are out there? How many have are as successful as our current collection of mixed games? Now imagine a hardcore only game, I cant cuz it would be filled full of elitists like most end-game raiders, the annoying people that cry for every little thing they dont like.

You can't subscribe to a game you didnt buy and not many will buy a content poor, half-made game. The game has to have enough merit to deserve subscribing to.

Two issues with what bolded. First, I don't have an elitist attitude because I'm tired of being shit on by developers. Blizzard hasn't put hardcore content into the game since 2008 when they added Sunwell. They throw countless dollars into these casual features that no one actually wants - that's fine.

But to suggest that every game should operate that way? It doesn't make me elitist to say "If you want a casual-friendly game go play any number of the other games out there." I'm simply showing folks that there is a need for a hardcore niche game that Copernicus could fill. If that's outside your playstyle? Too bad - you have about 459 other MMOs you could select from.

Also, I'm clearly not saying make all the content hardcore - in fact I've never suggested this and have often suggested the opposite.

What I have said, had you actually read my points, was that developers need to stop pulling the wool over our eyes. Do not give us BS fluff content like hardmodes in WoW that isn't real content. There is no MMO out there right now with a reasonable population that produces hardcore content that is actually content. None. Any MMO I currently play takes my money and does nothing with it but produce samey garbage in the name of making money.

Second, as far as being inconsiderate, it's not inconsiderate to want something that is against what the majority of folks may want. Again, I'm not suggesting hardcore-only content, but I am suggesting that developers give us something because you can run an MMO on half a million hardcore subscribers should you choose to shun casuals.

Thirdly, rewarding someone else doesn't mean you're being punished. That's a problem with our entitled society today - if someone else is getting something I better get it, too. If they want to reward hardcore players it doesn't mean casual players are being punished.

This link supplements my feelings on pricing here.

[Kysera]

I agree with hating on the faux-content of heroic raids in WoW. It just really increased burnout rate. Raid the exact same instance, fight the same mobs (But a little harder this time) ALL OVER AGAIN for slightly better gear a la Icecrown Citadel... No thanks. If you just have to have hard mode type things, I'd rather see it a little more like Ulduar - where you don't have a separate lockout instance to run, but are instead able to trigger the 'hard mode' by doing something a little different. And you can do it immediately, none of this Have-to-clear-it-on-normal-first crap.

Maybe the optional challenges get you cool stuff instead of just inflating gear/stats faster like it seemed to. That way, people can completely ignore it and not feel they have to push and try to do it for 'progression' sake. They can instead hit it up a little later with better gear to get the 'cool stuff'. Cool stuff could be special mounts, mini pets, house items, titles, appearance gear, sparkly weapon effects, illusions, whatever. For me, personally, gear is simply a means to an end. The end being able to kill our targets with my buddies. If we can kill said targets, I don't care about 'better' gear.

Example from WoW's past - Zul'Aman and the Amani War Bear. It's a fun 10 player raid, yet with the lure of a special mount if you can beat a timer. While it became fairly trivial when people got their full T6 gear, it was quite a challenge to go for it in our T4/T5 gear. Extra things to do, in the same instance, but no pressure to 'have' to do it for gear upgrades or whatever.

I think you can absolutely have a game where there's stuff for all types to do. You can have (And I've come to loathe these terms) sandboxy elements right alongside the themepark. There's no reason you can't have quest hubs, quest markers, bread crumb trails and all that AND have a big open world to just explore, pillage and murder in with maybe some open dungeon like areas that have harder mobs, maybe some rare spawns to hunt down. Maybe you are traipsing about the countryside, slaughtering willy-nilly for fun, loots and exp and oh look, this shiny doohickey the mob drops starts a quest! (Hey look I'm describing EQ2)

Anything to keep people out in the world and playing, in my opinion. Collectibles, rare mobs that drop neat/fun things, rare minipets that drop off of the regular mobs, harvestables for crafting, hunting down old gear for its appearance, world objects to find that give you a little bit of area lore when you click on them, etc etc etc.

Just... please... if someone feels the need to have factions to gain reputation with, put in other ways to raise it besides daily quests. Tabards to wear while you do dungeons, items to turn in to raise it, something. I know why game companies love daily quests, I get it. It keeps people feeling like they have to log in every day. If I love your game I already log in every day. Don't turn it into a job.

That said, to keep this pricing related, I'm pretty ok with cosmetic/fluff items in a cash shop even along with a subscription. I like fluff. Fluff is integral to a game world, for me. If all there is to do is raid, pvp and dailies I just won't be a customer.

[Bossner]

That said, to keep this pricing related, I'm pretty ok with cosmetic/fluff items in a cash shop even along with a subscription. I like fluff. Fluff is integral to a game world, for me. If all there is to do is raid, pvp and dailies I just won't be a customer.

I like EQ2s model, honestly.

It gets people to play the game and you can do a solid amount without paying for anything, but to really sink into the game later on you're going to need to subscribe. If you subscribe right away, you accumulate $5 worth of credits toward the RMTs every month and get access to the full game.

[Kurik Lein]

I'll always prefer subscription based models, if Copernicus were to have F2P and a subscription available I'd really like a subscription only server. Also I don't mind a cosmetic shop along with a normal subscription.

[DeathtoGnomes]

Two issues with what bolded. First, I don't have an elitist attitude because I'm tired of being shit on by developersBlizzard. Blizzard hasn't put hardcore content into the game since 2008 when they added Sunwell. TheyBlizzard throw countless dollars into these casual features that no one actually wants - that's fine.

But to suggest that every game should operate that way? It doesn't make me elitist to say "If you want a casual-friendly game go play any number of the other games out there." I'm simply showing folks that there is a need for a hardcore niche game that Copernicus could fill. If that's outside your playstyle? Too bad - you have about 459 other MMOs you could select from.

Also, I'm clearly not saying make all the content hardcore - in fact I've never suggested this and have often suggested the opposite.

What I have said, had you actually read my points, was that developers need to stop pulling the wool over our eyes. Do not give us BS fluff content like hardmodes in WoW that isn't real content. There is no MMO out there right now with a reasonable population that produces hardcore content that is actually content. None. Any MMO I currently play takes my money and does nothing with it but produce samey garbage in the name of making money.

Second, as far as being inconsiderate, it's not inconsiderate to want something that is against what the majority of folks may want. Again, I'm not suggesting hardcore-only content, but I am suggesting that developers give us something because you can run an MMO on half a million hardcore subscribers should you choose to shun casuals.

Thirdly, rewarding someone else doesn't mean you're being punished. That's a problem with our entitled society today - if someone else is getting something I better get it, too. If they want to reward hardcore players it doesn't mean casual players are being punished.

This link supplements my feelings on pricing here.

Fixed. These casual features you talk about no one one wants, might be true for WoW but in every other game I am one of those that do want them. The things that you "didn't suggest" might not be direct suggestions but you are implying them none the less. I see you are fed up with WoW and it developers but I am reading this that you want every game to stop adding fluff content just to cater to the whinney end-game raiders that are bored off their noggin waiting for more content every other day just for them.
I agree its not inconsiderate to want content as many other want the same, however it is inconsiderate to show everyone that is not in your "little group", the door just because they are not "zomg! hardcore enough". What this all sounds like, is that WoW needs more endgame developers to keep up with the un-ending demands to keep its income-base from being visually bored. At what cost and to whom? Are you willing to pay higher fees/costs to receive that content that most Wo-Widiots think they deserve for free?

As for you third statement I agree, sorta,shamefully tho, its a true blue, redneck American tradition to want the greener grass on the other side of the street, and AFAIK, its the drooids from EQ1 that started all that. But me personally, I could careless what you get rewarded with from your ever so valiant time consuming efforts in raiding the same old content over and over again, I really have no need for what you have, nor do I want it. What I do care about, is what content I am paying for. But, who is being "punished" when an expansion releases and it is 80-90% raiding content that the subscribing majority of casual players wont see? So lets assume casual players make up, say, 20% of the subscription base, according to what you've implied, that 20% shouldn't get any say in what they are paying for, well, since fluff doesnt belong in your hardcore game they get showed the door. Do you really think a new game developer is going to dismiss and write-off that 20% addition income just to cater to what you want?

I understand what you want from developers, and the things I want from them are quite different. They cant afford 2 teams developing separate content for the same game without passing that cost on us in the form of high retail prices and/or high subscription fees

[Bossner]

Fixed. These casual features you talk about no one one wants, might be true for WoW but in every other game I am one of those that do want them. The things that you "didn't suggest" might not be direct suggestions but you are implying them none the less. I see you are fed up with WoW and it developers but I am reading this that you want every game to stop adding fluff content just to cater to the whinney end-game raiders that are bored off their noggin waiting for more content every other day just for them.
I agree its not inconsiderate to want content as many other want the same, however it is inconsiderate to show everyone that is not in your "little group", the door just because they are not "zomg! hardcore enough". What this all sounds like, is that WoW needs more endgame developers to keep up with the un-ending demands to keep its income-base from being visually bored. At what cost and to whom? Are you willing to pay higher fees/costs to receive that content that most Wo-Widiots think they deserve for free?

As for you third statement I agree, sorta,shamefully tho, its a true blue, redneck American tradition to want the greener grass on the other side of the street, and AFAIK, its the drooids from EQ1 that started all that. But me personally, I could careless what you get rewarded with from your ever so valiant time consuming efforts in raiding the same old content over and over again, I really have no need for what you have, nor do I want it. What I do care about, is what content I am paying for. But, who is being "punished" when an expansion releases and it is 80-90% raiding content that the subscribing majority of casual players wont see? So lets assume casual players make up, say, 20% of the subscription base, according to what you've implied, that 20% shouldn't get any say in what they are paying for, well, since fluff doesnt belong in your hardcore game they get showed the door. Do you really think a new game developer is going to dismiss and write-off that 20% addition income just to cater to what you want?

I understand what you want from developers, and the things I want from them are quite different. They cant afford 2 teams developing separate content for the same game without passing that cost on us in the form of high retail prices and/or high subscription fees

See the problem is that fluff content is either BS fluff content for casuals or BS fluff content for hardcore - either way, it's not real content. Pokemon Battles? Farming? What the hell is this? BS hardmode raids and achievements aren't content regardless of how hardcore or casual tehy are.

That's what I'm pissed about.